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TextureMath : calyxa
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01.29.27 bryn: hey
calyxa: hi
01.30.06 bryn: I think you should change the channel to "private party for people other than mo and armands"
calyxa: too long...
calyxa: I can change the topic to that, tho
01.30.40 bryn: what is the topic now after "got no mor"
calyxa: ney
01.31.05 bryn: oh, I can resize the window, but you've already changed the topic
01.31.17 bryn: that's funny
01.31.34 bryn: a little dig at the boss
calyxa: wish there was a way to set it so that if Mo tries to get in, it'd ask him for a passwd, but would let everyone else in w/o asking
01.32.20 bryn: so I'm actually going to be here tonight, already ate dinner, and no dates
calyxa: what about figs?
calyxa: dates, figs, other dried fruits.... nevermind.
01.32.58 bryn: no, none of those either. Though I haven't missed a mojovox for figs yet, so maybe I should consider them
calyxa: heh
01.33.09 bryn: I know what you meant, just slow typing
01.33.16 bryn: I
01.33.18 bryn: don't
01.33.19 bryn: like
01.33.21 bryn: to
01.33.23 bryn: do the
01.33.27 bryn: mo typing
01.33.28 bryn: thing
01.33.32 bryn: for quick
01.33.34 bryn: updates
calyxa: :)
01.34.05 bryn: so other than still not being paid, how's life?
calyxa: dinner arrives here later, not sure what time. which is unfortunate, 'cuz I'm kinda hungry now.
01.34.22 bryn: husband delivery or round table?
calyxa: 'life is pain. anyone who says differently is selling something'
01.34.33 bryn: no pain no gain.
calyxa: whatever he decides to bring home.
calyxa: probably not round table or domingos.
calyxa: pizz'a chicago, tho, I won't rule that out.
01.35.50 bryn: thick-tastic
calyxa: Mo's still in NZ. I sent him a note 40 minutes ago telling him he left his private party room there and that we'd be here, but I don't think he's gotten it yet.
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calyxa: heya
01.36.59 infidel: hey
calyxa: guess I'd better go refill my cup and settle in
calyxa: brb.
01.37.21 bryn: hmm... the question is what is she drinking?
01.37.26 bryn: "salary" gin?
01.37.54 bryn: water? (must stay hydrated while exploring planets)
01.38.13 bryn: moon-shine?
01.38.52 bryn: that stuff will really offset your lacunarity
01.39.17 bryn: infidel are you having lag problems? maybe you'll get this in 40 seconds or so
01.39.22 infidel: i'd say #2...
01.39.42 infidel: i don't think so
01.39.52 bryn: ah, you were just letting me babble
01.39.57 infidel: the lag is caused by sharing files on the network here, so i've disabled everything
01.40.29 bryn: well at least you figured out the problem
calyxa: salary gin's all gone....
01.41.03 infidel: yeah this is much better.
01.41.14 infidel: and tonight i'm actually around to participate
calyxa: yay!
01.41.24 bryn: something with caffeine then perhaps? something's got to keep awake while tending the mojo support line
calyxa: didn't say that it wasn't gin....
01.42.23 bryn: working on your "sapphire" negative refractive materials tonight?
calyxa: no, on my world for the next week's challenge at 3dc...
01.42.43 infidel: calyxa: is blending between multiple curves planned for the future?
01.42.51 bryn: is it called "tanqueray"?
calyxa: worse - Gordon's....
calyxa: not sure I follow the Q, Eric..
calyxa: can you construct an example?
01.43.54 bryn: do you mean tha tin some places you have one curve and other places another?
01.44.15 bryn: err tha tin --> that in
01.44.16 infidel: on the land height fractal, i usually use some kind of modified curve to get cliffs, sloping shoreline, etc.. i'd like to blend between 2 such curves
01.44.42 infidel: right now i just clone the fractal, and then attach diffferent output curves, but it may be computing everything twice when it renders
01.45.19 bryn: got to go finish my thursday night guilty pleasure (tivo delayed dawson's creek) I'll be right back
calyxa: you can send the output of one thing into multiple things w/o cloning....
calyxa: so the output of your 'main' fractal can go into two curves, which go into the first two slots on a blend node, then use another fractal/curve as the blend value...
01.47.04 infidel: in the regular UI.. it seems whenever i use the Pro UI things take longer to compute
calyxa: heh, I was just today looking into using the Z component of a World Pos vector instead of Latitude to get faster results
calyxa: 'cuz by doing that, I don't have to wait for the 'change world pos into latitude' calculation
calyxa: I think it's just too easy to get really complex really quick in the Pro UI....
01.48.50 infidel: what kind of coordinate system is world pos? spherical?
calyxa: cartesian 3d.
calyxa: center of the planet is (0,0,0)
calyxa: north pole is (0,0,+radius)
calyxa: south pole is (0,0,-radius)...
01.50.46 infidel: the stuff i do in the Pro UI is basically the same as in the regular UI, i just have a few more curves around
01.50.58 infidel: cool..
01.51.28 infidel: is the coord transformation code done in assembler?
calyxa: I really don't know... but I am under the impression that the whole app is coded in C++, so it'd depend on what optimizations the compiler got away with.
01.53.05 infidel: are you using that amazing intel compilier?
calyxa: Craig might be (probably), but again, I don't know. the little dev stuff I've done is w/ plain ol' MSVC++ v6
01.58.20 infidel: calyxa: is there any way to suppress terrain detail for a certain material? eg if you have snow, you might want the underlying terrain to be flattened out
calyxa: and of course the location of the snow is determined by altitude and/or slope, right?
01.59.23 infidel: the obvious solution is to make a smallest feat size on the terrain and then add detail with displacements, but sometimes it's not ideal
calyxa: that is the obvious solution.
calyxa: if you're going to use displacements at all, I recommend setting the SFS to non-zero anyway. just as a matter of principle.
02.00.15 infidel: yeah.. i find that using xenoarch's planet slope with a kernel size of 10m looks very realistic for large snowfall
calyxa: cool - I haven't tried his plugs at all yet... :(
02.01.19 infidel: it's the only one i've used.. many uses for it
calyxa: I assume it's slow, tho..?
02.02.12 infidel: not too bad
02.03.17 infidel: lately i've also learned the value of different relative levels of displacement for different materials.. eg rock goes from -30 to 0, and grass goes from 5 to 10.. makes the transitions really cool
02.03.28 bryn: I am away.
calyxa: 10 meter tall grass, eh?
02.04.01 infidel: haha yeah
02.04.17 infidel: though really it's only 5
calyxa: actually, since positive displacements push the planet's surface in and negative ones poke it out... that's -10 meter tall grass...
calyxa: or 10 meter anti-tall grass... or something.
02.05.11 bryn: what happens when you put grass and anti grass together?
02.05.24 infidel: yeah, i'm aware of that.. sometimes it gets me though..
02.05.41 infidel: gamma rays get emitted, i'd imagine
calyxa: it'll all be mucked up by your basis function anyway.
calyxa: and I'm pretty sure there's some wonkyness between what comes out of a basis and what goes in to a fractal...
02.06.27 infidel: what settings are best to make shadows render quicker?
calyxa: so while your basis may be outputting between 0 and 2, the fractal may actually translate that to -1 to 1
02.06.34 bryn: what do you mean by mucked up? you mean the range of values?
calyxa: ya - I believe some "normalizing" of the range takes place.
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02.07.30 docmojo: Yo!
02.07.42 docmojo: I've gotta do a phone call, then I'll be back.
02.07.51 infidel: hey
calyxa: heh
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calyxa: w/b
02.09.06 bryn: damn wi/fi
02.09.11 infidel: calyxa: what are shadow bias & filter resolution in the shadows settings? any idea?
calyxa: I was just gonna ask if I should kick Mo out w/ a message saying, "private party for people other than Mo"
calyxa: just what I read in the 2.0 manual, Eric.
02.09.41 bryn: and who ever named it that?
02.09.41 bryn: wireless fireless?
02.09.50 bryn: it's annoying that the vox server won't let you back on for a minute or so
calyxa: that's because it doesn't realize you've been dropped for a while after you've been dropped, I believe.
calyxa: page 32 in the v2 manual, Eric - for descriptions of those shadow parameters.
02.11.13 infidel: wireless fireless ahaha
02.12.07 infidel: i haven't got v2 yet.. there was that contest at mojoworld.de that i won but volker hasn't contacted me about it
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calyxa: I'm not going to type it all... but quick comments - the larger the filter radius, the softer the shadow and vice versa
calyxa: shadow bias you don't need to worry about unless you're getting shadows that "don't line up with their objects" or strange banding in your shadows.
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calyxa: w/b :)
02.15.34 infidel: thanks
02.15.36 bryn: argh
02.16.06 bryn: no more wireless. I went and got my 75 foot ethernet cable.
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calyxa: heh, didn't help!
02.18.18 infidel: ha i guess not..
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02.18.44 bryn: so are other people getting dropped or is just me?
calyxa: w/b - we had fun at your expense while you were gone
calyxa: just you, dude
02.18.52 infidel: w/b #4
02.19.01 infidel: not i
02.19.08 bryn: if anyone can't talk about getting dropped, it's you infidel
calyxa: seriously!
02.19.45 bryn: so, let me share in the witty repartee at my expense I missed
02.20.01 bryn: what's the ip or name of the vox server?
02.20.06 infidel: haha.. that is true.
Invalid format
calyxa: calyxa: heh, didn't help!02.18.18 infidel: ha i guess not..
calyxa: pretty sure it's mojovox.pandromeda.com, but I could be wrong.
02.20.43 bryn: hmm I can't ping that
calyxa: try ^vox^chat^
02.22.05 infidel: calyxa: has pandromeda tried marketing MJW to any arts schools besides that one in florida?
calyxa: witty repartee - I said, "heh, didn't help!" and Eric replied, "ha i guess not..."
calyxa: whoever Mo could get to listen to him at various trade shows.... we don't have a marketing department or budget...
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calyxa: I'm pretty sure that Ken H in FL sought us out rather than vice-versa
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02.23.37 bryn: w/b 5
calyxa: heh
calyxa: quick, let's tape him down!
02.23.46 bryn: thought I'd save you guys the trouble.
02.23.54 bryn: cable seems to be bad.
02.24.17 bryn: I have this karma thing with computers. Apparently I abused computers in a previously life, and I'm paying for it now
02.24.26 infidel: i show everyone i'm in contact with my pictures, and they all seem interested, but not enough to try it themselves.. i'm not sure why
02.24.40 bryn: I'm sitting about 2 feet from my switch. known good short cable :)
calyxa: not even the free transporter?
02.24.48 bryn: knock on procedural wood texture
02.24.50 infidel: one of these days i'm going to make a huge print of one of my pics and put it on my wall, then maybe i can incite more interest
calyxa: :)
02.25.21 bryn: the high res nature of mojo has been a big selling point for people I've shown it to
02.25.41 infidel: i should flog the computer science building bulletin boards here with some kind of promo poster
calyxa: we need a canned tile render setting in Transporter Pro.....
calyxa: that'd be cool
02.26.00 bryn: that and the art building
02.26.05 infidel: I wish the community were bigger (for everyone's sake)
02.26.29 bryn: me too, caly needs to eat
02.26.38 bryn: one can just barely live on gin alone
02.26.56 infidel: i was actually searching for a high res pic of one of the old buildings here to post process into a render
02.27.08 bryn: though I hear phone cards are quite tasty
calyxa: tip - don't try putting a masked image on a 2d plane and rendering in in MW...
02.27.27 bryn: infidel: what do you mean by post process a photo in to a render
calyxa: still have maybe 15 minutes on the current one.
calyxa: like I did w/ that pic of Mo and Craig...
02.27.54 infidel: Make it look like the building is in the world
02.28.01 bryn: oh, I see merge with a photo
02.28.18 infidel: yeah..
02.28.26 infidel: calyxa: why not?
02.28.35 bryn: I used mojo to render a MRI dataset the other day. Thought maybe you meant using the photo as a heighfield
calyxa: 'cuz it loses mega detail and is slow.
02.29.06 infidel: alrighty.
calyxa: I was disappointed...
02.29.26 infidel: actually, i should go to the architecture building and talk to students there.\
calyxa: http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?MojoWorld+1QfsdSanU+1043629841
02.29.35 bryn: what about putting a outline of the building in the render, and then warping the photo to match the outline to get proper perspective and all
02.29.48 infidel: i'm sure somebody has already created 3D models of buildings here
calyxa: if you can get the models, make sure to get good texture maps too, or use procedurals.
02.30.28 bryn: how did you do the banana leaves?
calyxa: those are picts mapped onto the model
02.30.47 bryn: while you are over at the architecture school you can tell them how they can create awesome backgrounds
02.30.59 bryn: some imported .obj or something?
calyxa: yeah
02.31.23 infidel: yeah.. i have 2 weeks off before my first exam, maybe then..
02.31.34 bryn: so would my outline thing as a guide for perspective correction and exposure compensation work?
calyxa: "probably"
02.32.01 bryn: kind of like chromakeying and using the difference in color as shadow map for photo
02.32.14 bryn: the "finamous pandromeda quotes"
calyxa: if it's a box-like building, you could have the box cast the shadow
02.32.25 bryn: err "infamous"
02.32.42 bryn: I was thinking more about the shadow cast on to the building, but that's a good idea
02.32.49 infidel: yeah for sure
02.33.02 bryn: I always picture Dr. Evil from Austin Powers when you guys do the quotes thing
02.33.39 infidel: the building i want to do looks like a castle. it's amazing
02.34.11 bryn: do you go to a european college or something on the east coast of the us maybe?
02.34.17 infidel: and i get to have class there.. ahhh
02.34.40 infidel: university of toronto.. ivy league but 1/4 the price
02.34.46 bryn: nice
02.34.51 infidel: like ivy league anyway..
02.35.40 bryn: I was going to make some comment about the ivy league but I refrained since these vox logs get posted
calyxa: how optimistic of you ;)
calyxa: I'm way behind on posting 'vox logs...
02.36.24 infidel: are you really concerned? have you read what's been said in the past?1
02.37.15 bryn: you mean like my comment would disappear amidst the crazy talk that goes on around here? or are you asking if anybody bothers to read the logs?
calyxa: I'm reasonably certain that random people look at them because they turn up in google searches for key words like 'absinthe'
02.37.59 infidel: #1
02.38.29 infidel: hahaha
02.38.34 bryn: I read most of them when I first got involved in mojo and was trying to figure out when mojo v2 was coming out
02.38.39 bryn: hmm absinthe
02.38.41 bryn: absinthe
02.38.44 bryn: absinthe
calyxa: I miss it.
02.39.09 bryn: brb while I go create a web page about absinthe that links to calyxa.pandromeda.com
02.39.26 bryn: got to get vox logs up to number 1 on google when searching for absinthe
calyxa: push up those rankings, huh
calyxa: a carefully crafted .htaccess could put a stop to that, you know
02.39.57 bryn: have you seen googlism?
calyxa: yes, just yesterday, as a matter of fact. weird.
02.40.15 bryn: absinthe is no substitute for mojoworld
calyxa: mojoworld is a substitute for absinthe, albeit a poor one.
02.41.04 bryn: is that like the rumor that if you drink a ton of water you get effect like getting drunk?
calyxa: or you drown, yeah.
02.41.20 bryn: tooo mush mojo...
02.42.05 bryn: re: .htaccess, did you mean <gasp> you'd prevent google from indexing your page?
calyxa: just the vox logs
02.42.29 docmojo: So, how do I close that Private Party room?
02.42.33 bryn: but the world revolves around google. if there was a web page about a tree falling in the forest and google didn't index it, would it make a sound?
02.43.04 bryn: Doc, that NZ internet connection must be like my connection, and infidels previous connection. you've got about a 50 minute lag
calyxa: switch to it and click the x on the INNER upper right corner.
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calyxa: you have to switch to it first...
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calyxa: sigh.
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02.44.09 bryn: so re: texture math, is there a way to make two negative numbers multiply to be negative?
02.44.14 bryn: absolute value one texture?
02.44.25 docmojo: I tiried that... Doesn't seem to work...
calyxa: you need to switch to the other room first.
02.44.59 docmojo: I did. Now I'm not in it, but it still exists.
calyxa: a room can't exist w/ no-one in it.
TextureMath : docmojo bryn infidel calyxa
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02.45.40 infidel: i've got to run. it's been a blast (absinthe!) have a good one everybody
calyxa: it's gone now
02.45.45 docmojo: Whatever.
calyxa: see ya later, Eric, thanks for coming by!
02.45.50 docmojo: See ya!
02.46.18 infidel: i'm just going to leave it on to read the log
calyxa: ok
02.46.32 bryn: see ya infidel
calyxa: "since caly is so lame about posting them"
02.46.57 bryn: gives people incentive to come. it's a "feature"
calyxa: hee hee
02.47.23 bryn: of course it also gives people incentive to log in early and pick the room name of their choice *grin*
02.47.46 bryn: but *I* would *never* do a thing like that.
calyxa: haw haw
02.48.13 bryn: I'm trying to start a pandromeda users *asterisk* thing because we aren't cool enough to do the "quote" thing
calyxa: so, Mo, how's NZ? how many more days are you down for?
02.49.31 bryn: any sign of SARS down there?
calyxa: SARS?
02.50.02 bryn: errr...don't know, that undetectable pneumonia death thing
calyxa: oh that. I think I have that.
02.50.14 bryn: something acute respiratory syndrome
calyxa: I've been sick for weeks.
02.50.26 bryn: that's no fun
02.50.32 bryn: you should stop.
calyxa: more gin. that'll kill it.
02.51.00 bryn: it is a poison...
calyxa: no known human pathogen can live in alcohol
02.51.18 bryn: but usually it works on nerve cells...
02.51.42 bryn: hmm...I shall become the boy in the alcohol bubble
calyxa: got an immune problem?
02.52.45 bryn: no, but I figure if I live in alcohol no human pathogen can get me, and it might be entertaining too
02.53.20 bryn: exception to your human pathogen rule: reality tv
02.54.04 bryn: have you read the book ender's game?
calyxa: yup
02.54.40 bryn: you know the imaginary game that ender plays on his desk where he eventually finds a playground made out of the giants bones and skull?
calyxa: yeah
02.54.57 bryn: the mri I rendered looks eerily like I imagined that to be, except with no vegetation
calyxa: cool. did you watch Children of Dune?
02.55.11 bryn: you can definitely see the eye sockets they form this tall circular ridge
02.55.29 bryn: no, I have it on my replaytv at home though. I saw the original dune miniseries though
calyxa: there was a cool dream sequence that Leto II had w/ sand worm skeletons sticking out of a grassy field...
02.56.13 bryn: I heard CoD is even harder to follow than the books
calyxa: there was an earlier scene w/ Jessica and Gurney Halleck walking along a bridge w/ some 1st & 2nd closest voronoi noise and I could tell one 'stone' was considered 'too big' and was 'corrected' by an artist.
calyxa: it wasn't that bad. it's been ages since I've read the sequels.
02.57.32 bryn: wow, so do you think they used mojo? or some custom program?
calyxa: custom for sure.
calyxa: but voronoi noise is voronoi noise.
02.58.15 bryn: so will they ever use mojo or will they continue to do everything custom?
calyxa: remember the shadow ships in Babylon 5? those had voronoi cells, too.
calyxa: they're not going to use Mojo unless they have need for planets - and/or planet to surface zooms w/o faking it by going thru cloud layers.
02.59.12 bryn: because they need to create a specific scene?
calyxa: local stage sets, yeah.
03.00.32 bryn: I've got to go for about 5 minutes, I'll be back tho
calyxa: me too.
calyxa: I'm back
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calyxa: hey, Cam
03.05.12 Camel: Hey all.
03.05.50 Camel: Wow quiet in here.
calyxa: Bryn is AFK, not sure what is up with Mo (he's in NZ, so is probably talking real-time w/ the engineers...)
03.06.49 Camel: Still in NZ? What's he doing there anyway?
calyxa: "work" apparently. ;)
calyxa: I'm pretty sure there's only a few more days left on his trip.
03.07.56 Camel: Ahhh...... But it must be nice there.
calyxa: just going in to autumn.
calyxa: weather reports from Mo have said that the weather in Dunedin is variable, as usual.
03.08.44 Camel: Hehe
calyxa: so, not that it matters much... but if you thought you got here "right on time", you're off by an hour.
03.10.59 Camel: Well if your hungry and your other half makes dinner. You really don't want to piss him/her off now, do you.............
calyxa: true.
03.11.12 Camel: :)
calyxa: I just wanted to clear up any potential time-zone induced confusion.
03.12.15 Camel: NP all cleared up now.
03.12.17 bryn: AFK?
calyxa: not anymore, you're not (away from keyboard)
03.12.29 Camel: Hey bryn!!
03.12.36 bryn: hi camel!
03.12.41 bryn: how's the humps?
calyxa: that's a rather personal question, now, isn't it?
03.13.07 Camel: Oh just wonderful!!!!!!
03.13.16 bryn: depends if you are a camel/dromedary or not
calyxa: heh heh
03.13.36 bryn: I personally don't mind it when people ask about my nalgene bottle (water storage mechanism)
03.13.56 bryn: or maybe I should say, what's smokin'?
03.14.01 bryn: if you're that kind of camel
03.14.06 Camel: LOL!!!!
calyxa: I'd walk a mile for one
03.14.16 Camel: I do love water though.
03.14.33 bryn: hmm water, elixir of life
03.14.45 Camel: It's just in too much fat around my midriff.
03.15.10 bryn: well, that's better than me, I have too much fat in my fat around my midriff
03.15.18 Camel: Water and hops go to good together.
03.15.43 bryn: the real evolutionary reason behind a camel's humps. beer storage
03.15.51 bryn: the original "kegerator"
03.15.56 Camel: Hehe
03.16.28 bryn: so camel, are you inspired by the *texture math* topic
03.16.31 bryn: ?
03.16.36 Camel: Kegerator!!! Heh i'll have to remember that one.
03.16.55 Camel: Um kind of.
calyxa: not that we're really talking about it.
calyxa: much
03.17.12 Camel: I was going to listen in and see what it was about.
calyxa: absinthe
calyxa: google
03.17.39 bryn: humps
calyxa: that too.
03.18.02 bryn: oh yeah and you missed me getting disconnected about 53 times
03.18.04 Camel: Dual Hump........
03.18.06 bryn: that was exciting
calyxa: the 3rd time came before the 5th time.
03.18.29 Camel: What!!! You went through the revolving door?
calyxa: 5 times
03.18.49 bryn: camel, you should work on a texture library item with rolling hills that you could call "humps" for inclusion in the future community materiasls library people have been talking about on 3d commune
03.19.05 bryn: it felt like 53
03.19.35 Camel: OOoooo good idea..
03.19.36 bryn: caly you missed all the attempted connections where mojovox told me bryn was already in use and then disconnected me
calyxa: I wish I could go back in time and see that the whole texture / material / leaf / tree thing happened differently...
calyxa: ah, then it was 53 then.
03.20.08 bryn: you mean every texture has a corresponding material leaf, and have either a binary tree or an infinite number of leaves?
calyxa: like the time I tried logging in as Craig but was too blotto to type his tricsky passwd...
calyxa: binary tree for sure.
calyxa: and let textures be nested similar to how you can have a nested material tree leaf.
03.20.47 bryn: adding up a lot of textures would be a pain in a binary tree
calyxa: w/ each tree consisting of 2 leaves and each leaf can be a tree, you can force your parethesis to be where you want...
03.21.33 bryn: the binary tree would be more important in the material tree where I usually want a lot of if this then this else that
03.21.35 bryn: scenarios
calyxa: 'cuz right now, if you have A + B and then put a C on there as a multiplier, you may have to re-arrange things.
calyxa: A + B * C is diferent from (A + B) * C
03.22.25 Camel: Hmmmmm
03.22.28 bryn: true. but (A+B) + (C+D) + (E+F) might be more confusing in the UI than (A+B+C+D+E+F)
calyxa: you can't have that now,t ho.
calyxa: you can only have (A + B + C + D) or (A + B) + (C + D)
calyxa: so a lot of times, rather than re-arranging my leaves, I create a D and disconnect it and use the 'parenthesis arrows' thingies to handle it for me.
03.23.40 bryn: I know I'm just saying that in the parallel dimension where we can have our way with the ui, it might be nice to have an option to allow more than two leaves
03.24.04 bryn: I usually try and clone the textures and just change the leaves to be in the right order
calyxa: using the ddlbs to re-arrange the order is the "correct" solution... but it's a time-consuming work-like one.
03.24.34 Camel: Dang you two are starting to get deep.
calyxa: heh heh.
03.25.15 Camel: Just keep blabbing i'll kind of get it one of these days.
03.25.32 bryn: deep as in up to our hips in it?
calyxa: when building up from scratch, tho, I think a "and these two leaves become a new tree-leaf" is more obvious than "add more leaves"
03.26.48 bryn: yeah but there are 10 kinds of people in the world (for camel's sake who may not have seen this signature going around I'll include the punchline since you already know it caly) those that understand binary and those that don't
03.27.29 Camel: :)
calyxa: heh.. know it well and it was even one of those rare things that when sent to Craig got a nearly immediate response :)
calyxa: hey! it's food!
03.27.54 bryn: some people may not be used to thinking of a binary tree. what would be best I think is a ui with much more logical parenthesis things that actually let you group 2 or more textures together in side a parenthesis (like nested material trees)
03.28.05 bryn: oooh ooh what did ya get?
03.28.20 bryn: caly was waiting on the delivery man/husband I think
03.28.40 bryn: and she didn't know what type of food he's going to bring
calyxa: cheap chinee
03.29.10 Camel: Yum
03.29.20 bryn: did even include the s, must be mr. chau
calyxa: then maybe you're reading more into 'binary tree' than I'm meaning.
calyxa: no, Chef Chen -- a few steps above Mr. Chau...
03.30.09 bryn: I think our disagreement centers around whether or not you can have more than 2 things in a nest
03.30.35 bryn: so camel, what do you think about the user interface?
calyxa: a nest can include a thing and another nest -- so there are only 2 things in a nest, but those things can be nests.
03.31.20 Camel: So technically there's more than one thing in it.
03.31.29 bryn: but if a nest is a parenthesis, why not allow more than two things in it as you can still explicitly do any combination you want, and any where you have more than one thing follows some order of operations just like math?
calyxa: for the same reason we arbitrarily only allow 4 leaves... being able to draw the UI sanely.
03.32.25 bryn: (A*B*C)+(D*E) ... or ((A*B)*C)+(D*E)
03.32.39 Camel: Hey that just made some sense.
03.32.43 bryn: the more levels of nesting you get the harder it is to keep all the windows straight and thus you have multiple monitor discussions
calyxa: Irene's still sore 'cuz Mat told her we 'won't fix' her crash on startup bug 'cuz her monitor situation forces her system to drop below minimum spec....
03.33.37 bryn: who is mat?
calyxa: if you've already finalized ((A*B)*C), tho, you don't need the window space.
calyxa: former engineering manager... I can dig up the photo if you want.
03.34.03 bryn: but who ever finalizes anything in a mojo-world?
03.34.29 bryn: maybe I'm just an inveterate tweaker, but I tend to *traverse* my tree a lot
03.34.31 Camel: Heh
03.34.46 bryn: no photo necessary, just hadn't heard of him before
calyxa: tough cookies - http://calyxa.best.vwh.net/private/mw/pandrocrew.jpg
calyxa: Mat's in the center back row... behind the woman behind my right shoulder
03.36.08 Camel: Oh yah good pic!!!
03.36.09 bryn: how lame am I? I was like what hell is she talking about browser cookies for.
calyxa: ??
calyxa: now I'm the one who's lost!
calyxa: oh, those tough cookies.
calyxa: :)
03.37.08 bryn: you said "tough cookies"
03.37.13 Camel: Hehe
03.38.30 bryn: so, will the ui ever change or is it set in stone? is kent the ui guy still around?
calyxa: he's around, but we can't afford him.
03.39.03 bryn: he doesn't take gin as payment?
calyxa: heh. I should show you my curve editor mock-up
calyxa: no... he's way too straight-laced for that.
03.39.39 bryn: a straight laced UI guy? is that an oxymoron?
calyxa: dunno where you're finding the bent ones.
03.40.08 bryn: I thought they were all whacked out artists turned programmers to make a quick buck
calyxa: http://calyxa.pandromeda.com/private/curvepermo.gif
03.40.34 bryn: hmm, maybe that's just reflecting on my friends :)
03.40.59 bryn: can I make a suggestion?
calyxa: ya
03.41.12 Camel: I'm listening.
03.41.25 bryn: why leave the original curve there? why not just make the new cooler one below editable?
calyxa: not enough space.
calyxa: the center square on that lower one is the 'zoom area'.
calyxa: did you know that the current curve editor can zoom way in on the curve?
03.42.13 Camel: I like the way it looks though.
03.42.18 bryn: and then put points on the "infinite" end and negative infinite end and allow them to be dragged in to either a clamp, mirror or reflect orientaiton (sort of a snap thing)
03.42.52 bryn: well if you didn't have the zoom area, you could make the overview bigger (enough bigger that the middle square is the same size as the zoom)
03.43.04 bryn: wait. I think I misunderstood
03.43.29 bryn: I thought that in the unzoomed part, the gray square represented 0->1, 0->1
calyxa: lemme dig up an older one...
03.43.39 bryn: and that outside that represented what the reflect/clamp etc does
calyxa: http://calyxa.pandromeda.com/private/newcurveepiphthreezoom.gif
03.44.05 Camel: Hmm
03.44.22 bryn: so what you are actually trying to get at is more detailed control of specific areas rather than a more clear indication of what is going on outside the boundaries
calyxa: the 'beyond output' should say 'reflect' in that one, tho
calyxa: both
03.44.43 Camel: Oh my!! That looks not good.
03.44.55 bryn: are the red blue and green in the overview different options or are they onscreen all at once?
calyxa: they're all on at once, but only one is 'active' at a time.
calyxa: you've probably never looked at a 3-color curve, huh
03.45.28 bryn: why have them there then?
03.45.46 bryn: or are those the RGB channels?
03.45.50 Camel: Never even thought of 3-color curve.
calyxa: because you may want your green curve to be similar to the red one...
calyxa: on a color texture, it's the 'output controls' curve.
03.46.09 bryn: nope, never looked at a 3 color curve
03.46.18 bryn: actually I have but not in mojo
03.46.39 bryn: only photoshop
calyxa: there are a few three color curve presets in the curve library... 'darken me' 'green me' 'pastel me'....
03.47.21 bryn: I haven't explored the library or challenge planets as much as I should (or really at all)
calyxa: the idea is to have the same zoomable curve editing area as well as show what happens 'beyond' and also to really 'connect' the min / max in / out values to where they belong on the graph.
03.48.51 bryn: to clarify the zoom nature you could draw semi transparent lines from the corners of the zoom box to where they are on the overview
03.49.04 bryn: like it's "zooming" out of the page
03.49.08 bryn: err screen
03.49.49 bryn: now that I understand what's going on, I like it!
calyxa: in that first one, the zoom area is at full expansion - the box can only shrink from there, and would be like the smaller yellow box in that second example (which was actually an earlier version)
03.49.56 Camel: Well poop i gotta scoot yall. When i do come in i usually learn something though:)
03.50.00 bryn: I like your first one better
03.50.02 Camel: Night all.
calyxa: see ya Cam
03.50.07 bryn: thanks for dropping by camel
03.50.11 bryn: see ya round
03.50.12 Camel: :)
calyxa: the 'first' one is the 'latest version'
Camel has left channel TextureMath
03.50.29 bryn: I would make the zoom window less big relative to the overview I think
calyxa: it's currently the same size as the 'real' curve editor.
03.51.01 bryn: can somebody zoom in on say 0.1->0.3 and 0.1->0.3?
calyxa: the zoom area is always square and can be moved anywhere in the min / max in / out range
03.51.32 bryn: if so, you probably want to have some indication of boundaries on the zoom window
calyxa: that, Mo and Craig tell me, is _really hard_
calyxa: or at least would require some major behind-the-scenes code overhaul
calyxa: even tho the area is shown as square, it doesn't necessarily map to square data...
03.52.52 bryn: no, I mean like the square is in the upper left corner of the min in/max out range so it's 0->0.5, .5->1
03.53.26 bryn: so is survivor on in 9 minutes?
calyxa: yeah, I think so...
calyxa: that's my plan, anyway.
calyxa: did you see my curve editor tutorial?
calyxa: 'cuz that will help explain what I'm on about in the mockup
03.54.42 bryn: yes I did
03.55.03 bryn: I was actually thinking too much about it, focused on the reflect mirror thing not as much on the zoom thing
calyxa: there's nothing much about zoom in the tut....
03.55.49 bryn: so the really hard thing, would be to give some idea to the user the range of the data, right?
03.56.09 bryn: like sometimes I'm wondering if mirror is having any effect but in reality no data is outside the min/max in
calyxa: there's a BUG.
calyxa: if the input is outside of the min/max input range, the 'beyond output' option is IGNORED
calyxa: of course if you mean 'beyond input' and you're not seeing results, then you're right, there is no data that goes outside the input range
03.58.26 bryn: I told my roommate that I was giving pandromeda sh*t about their ui and he said "tell them it should minimize when you hit windows-m" because he was a microsoft ui slave^h^h^h^h^hdev engineer and he tried to get to my desktop icons while it was rendering
03.58.51 bryn: yes I meant beyond input
calyxa: it should minimize while rendering, but I find that behaves badly, so I just drag the windows down to the bottom of the screen to get at the desktop...
calyxa: well, I'm gonna head out... thanks for all the discussion - feel free to write me re: ideas on UI ;)
04.01.01 bryn: ok, catch ya later
calyxa: bye!
04.01.08 bryn: keep up the good work reforming the ui