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PitfallsOfDisplacement : calyxa
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calyxa: yo, Cam
01.05.33 camel: Hey Caly!!
01.05.56 camel: So who's showing up this eve?
calyxa: it's early yet, still about an hour to official start time.
calyxa: not sure...
01.06.13 camel: Hehe!!!
calyxa: probably Bruce (pushinfaders), maybe Xenoarch, maybe ArtistKen... no Mo, tho
01.06.36 camel: No Mo?
01.06.42 camel: Why's that?
calyxa: because I haven't said, "hey Mo, there's really a 'vox tonight, be there!"
01.07.12 camel: LOL!!!!!
calyxa: I could try to ring him up now and see if he's game...
01.07.42 camel: Only if you want to.
01.08.09 camel: Is there anything special happening this eve?
calyxa: the plan is to talk about displacement the way we talked about textures in general last week
calyxa: (the transcript actually _is_ posted!)
01.09.06 camel: Ok I'll have to go copy it and read then.
01.09.24 camel: I wasn't around last week.
01.09.39 camel: To many things to do these days.
calyxa: ya...
01.10.18 camel: Did you have good holidays?
calyxa: not too bad.
calyxa: they usually get me down, so I'm glad it's over with for the year.
01.11.06 camel: Yup me to.
01.12.06 camel: Funny thing is though. My girlfriend has done some of next years Xmas shopping already, and its half done.
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calyxa: hola, Ash..(?)
01.12.32 camel: Hey FSC
01.12.40 FSC: Hi
01.13.01 FSC: wow, people are actually here.
01.13.12 camel: OOOoooooo!!!
calyxa: thursday night, 45 minutes before "an event"...
calyxa: it happens...
01.13.53 FSC: Is there an event, in 45?
01.14.34 camel: I think just a regular one. No speacial one.
calyxa: "regular thursday night" with almost a topic even (displacement)
01.15.42 FSC: Its 11:40 am here in Australia.
01.15.50 FSC: On Friday.
calyxa: it's 2:15pm friday afternoon in NZ...
calyxa: though I like to think of it as "three hours ago tomorrow"
01.16.29 FSC: hehe.
01.17.26 FSC: who usually joins in on these vox events? does the Doc?
calyxa: Mo hasn't been in on an event for a while. maybe I'll try to get his cage rattled for next week.
calyxa: he gave up on it when the turnout got too irregular, but with last week and tonight, he may be convinced to "make an appearance"
01.18.43 FSC: So I must remember, this time every week!
01.18.58 camel: hmmm i'll be around but not at the comp yall.
calyxa: until the time change happens (we "spring forward" in a couple months...)
01.19.23 FSC: hey?
calyxa: daylight saving time
calyxa: on or off, I always forget.
calyxa: spring forward, fall back... all that good stuff. do you not do that?
01.19.58 FSC: Yes, I never know which.
calyxa: some places don't. there are towns and counties in the US that don't do daylight time... very weird to have it be 4pm on one side of the road and only 3pm on the other.
01.21.40 FSC: Yeah, there are towns in Aus where they celebrate new years, then cross the road and celebrate it again!!
01.21.59 FSC: Town on the border.
01.22.37 camel: Dang gotta make dinner
01.22.49 camel: Be back in about 40 min.
01.22.52 camel: :)
calyxa: 'k
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01.22.59 FSC: Ok.
01.23.16 FSC: Ill have to help my mum dry the dogs soon.
calyxa: sounds fun... how many and what kind?
01.23.52 FSC: We have afghans so it takes my mum a while by herself.
calyxa: long hair on those dogs, huh.
01.24.16 FSC: We have 7, but shes only doing 2. yes very long hair.
calyxa: wow, that's a lot of dogs.
01.25.27 FSC: Like 4 of them are puppies, but still have long hair!
calyxa: gotta get up for a minute - BRB...
01.26.55 FSC: no worries, im gonna get some lunch.
calyxa: back, mostly ;)
01.30.44 FSC: Mmmm, meat pie!!
calyxa: I've got some eggplant parmesan in the microwave...
01.32.15 FSC: Oh yeah, my pie's allmost ready!!
01.46.21 FSC: My mum needs me to help with the dogs now.
calyxa: ok (munch munch)
01.46.40 FSC: Do know how long till this thing starts?
calyxa: the scheduled "official" start time is in 15 minutes
calyxa: but it'll start when people show up...
01.47.24 FSC: Ok, Ill be back here then.
calyxa: cool
01.47.34 FSC: Cya.
calyxa: bye
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calyxa: hey hey, two at once!
02.05.25 XenoArch: hey
calyxa: (assuming things work for infidel...)
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calyxa: w/b FSC
02.06.28 FSC: Thanks. Mum let me do this.
calyxa: got out of dog-drying duty?
02.06.46 FSC: Yep.
calyxa: so, you all want to know the deep secret to making displacements work without too many artifacts and without hanging renders?
02.08.37 infidel: can anyone hear me? this still isn't working properly..
02.08.51 FSC: I can here you.
02.08.53 XenoArch: don't do displacements?
calyxa: I see you, infidel.
02.09.12 FSC: Do do displacements.
calyxa: heh, that's one answer, XA
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02.09.36 XenoArch: displacements is givening me no end of troub with my shoredistance plugin
calyxa: hey, Bruce
02.09.50 FSC: Bruce, what up.
02.09.55 pushinfaders: HI gang !!
calyxa: one secret of displacement is - the smoother the underlying terrain function, the fewer artifacts you'll get...
02.11.13 pushinfaders: Ahhh, that makes sense
02.11.36 infidel: ok i guess i have to live with this strange, insane lag
calyxa: similarly, the smoother the displacement is, the better it works...
calyxa: bummer, infidel...
02.12.10 infidel: displacements haven't caused many problems for me lately
02.12.33 XenoArch: yeah i know i have to figureout how to smooth presampled points
02.12.35 pushinfaders: roughness is an under used parameter
calyxa: this smoothness bit is also why specifying a smallest feature size other than 0 makes displacements work better.
02.13.13 FSC: Oh yeah.
02.13.57 infidel: i usually use noise rather than fractals
02.14.06 pushinfaders: I should be taking notes...I'll just save this whole thing
02.14.08 infidel: 2 noises, one large and one small, is often much better looking
calyxa: I'm not 100% sure, but for some reason I'm thinking a noise is the same as a fractal with a roughness of 0 (and probably faster...)
02.14.48 FSC: I usually only use noise for distorting, in a big scale.
02.15.22 FSC: Um, how do you save this?
02.15.31 pushinfaders: I'll have to give the noise idea a try
calyxa: clicky on either 'save to disk' icon
calyxa: the one with the arrow that goes 'round will continuously log
calyxa: the first one just saves "what we've got so far"
02.16.02 FSC: Ok, at the end or right now.
calyxa: depends on which one you use...
02.17.08 FSC: I see now, please continue.
calyxa: the next thing I was going to mention was about scale...
02.17.37 pushinfaders: I forget about that..now in a future version of the vox, file sharing would be very cool
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calyxa: the general rule of "don't put the camera closer than twice the distance of the largest displacement" usually works...
02.18.58 pushinfaders: so if your using a 2 meter displacement stay at least 4 meters away?
calyxa: yeah - unless you're sure of which way the displacement goes.
02.19.42 FSC: Which is the best way with result scale, minus or plus.
02.20.03 pushinfaders: I noticed a lot of Bob and Armands voronoi displacements are negative #'s
calyxa: depends on what you want - and what you're displacing.
calyxa: hang on while I find my sample image...
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02.20.42 pushinfaders: Hello Ken !!
02.20.45 FSC: Ive used negative values mostly.
calyxa: hey, Ken
calyxa: (lookin for a sample image to upload...)
02.20.58 FSC: Hi Ken.
02.21.01 artistken: Howdy All!
02.21.40 XenoArch: gotta run... been swamped lately
02.21.49 artistken: seey Xwno
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02.21.54 pushinfaders: See ya Xeno
02.21.56 FSC: Yep, cya.
02.22.12 pushinfaders: Eric's back
02.22.56 pushinfaders: So a negative displacement cuts into it where a positive extrudes right?
02.22.58 artistken: Calyxa, very nice work on the tutorial so far and I like the direction you are taking!
calyxa: depends - a negative displacement on the planet behaves differently than on a sphere...
calyxa: if I can ever find that sample image.....
calyxa: grr.
02.23.43 pushinfaders: Calys having a rough week
calyxa: http://calyxa.pandromeda.com/displacementexample.jpg
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calyxa: same material on the planet (flat planet) and on the sphere...
calyxa: Ken, I know I explained this one to you a while back... ;)
02.26.11 artistken: yup - the examples are great
02.26.49 FSC: But you can allways flip the curve.
calyxa: I made a planet called 'Zen' that's _all_ displacement. and through careful usage of the input curve, I keep the displacement all hugely positive, so the camera is guaranteed to always be above the planet's surface.
02.27.08 FSC: And min input as -1.
calyxa: flipping the curve will flip the orientation -- but!
calyxa: if you are 10 meters above a surface being poked out 20 meters, your render will hang...
calyxa: if you are 10 meters above a surface that is being poked in 20 meters, you're cool.
02.28.04 pushinfaders: It's funny cause , on the planet it appears to do the opposite of what you think it would
02.28.06 FSC: Yep.
calyxa: yes, displacement on the planet is "backwards" but we decided it was better to call that a "known issue" than to "fix" it because fixing it would break a bunch of worlds that already existed.
02.29.10 FSC: This is very interesting!
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calyxa: w/b Cam
02.29.25 pushinfaders: I was looking at the linear displacements on the planets MCS (?) The tweak of sinew world...
02.29.28 camel: Hey all!!!
02.29.35 pushinfaders: Hi cam
02.29.37 FSC: Hello.
02.30.09 camel: Sorry go on, didn't mean to interupt.
calyxa: http://calyxa.pandromeda.com/zend.mjw <-- that's my 'zen' world where the mountain height function is "height = 0" and all the terrain comes from material displacement...
calyxa: you can put your camera as low as you want and it should still render because the displacement should be pushing the planet's surface down everywhere.
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calyxa: w/b Eric
02.31.46 FSC: Im trying it now Caly.
02.32.05 pushinfaders: Got it..Thank you
calyxa: it would have been cooler if 'altitude' wasn't really 'undisplaced altitude'...
calyxa: then I could have made it look like a flat grey planet until it was rendered. ah well.
02.32.54 FSC: Looks allmost underwater.
02.33.11 infidel: what'd i miss? :)
calyxa: that's just where the camera is - there's some land-looking stuff, too. I had another version w/ an ocean which did weird things to it...
02.33.22 FSC: I see how you can go 1 metre and no artifacts.
02.33.32 artistken: Gotta run to the convenient store real quick, gonna keep my vox open so I get all the juicy stuff, will be back in a quick few!
calyxa: that's because of two things - the fact that the underlying terrain is perfectly smooth and the fact that the displacements are all positive, pushing the planet in.
02.34.16 pushinfaders: like an inverse Mojo world
calyxa: but if you always push the planet in, you don't get overhangs, which is the coolest part of displacement...
calyxa: so we're really back to "smooth" and "watch your camera height"...
calyxa: hang on while I dig up another sample...
02.35.39 FSC: Really weird world caly.
calyxa: heh, thanks.
02.36.05 pushinfaders: argh..rendering..can't look now
calyxa: it was mostly a "proof of concept" thing.
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calyxa: man, I wish I knew why Eric has such problems w/ vox!
02.36.36 FSC: Yeah.
02.36.55 pushinfaders: I really wonder if is an issue with his ISP
02.37.04 FSC: I like how you dunno what your rendereing!
02.37.07 camel: Could be.
calyxa: gah... classic bombed on me... so I've got to wait another 5 minutes before I can convert that next example pic to a jpg.
calyxa: yeah, ISP or firewall or something...
calyxa: that's why I called it "Zen".
02.37.39 FSC: Zen?
02.37.49 camel: I remember when i was in the revolving door in Brycetalk.
calyxa: the filename was 'zend' because it was a fourth variant of 'zen'...
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calyxa: John! LTNS!
02.38.15 camel: John!!!!
02.38.15 pushinfaders: Hi John
02.38.20 John_Spirko: Good Evening! :-)
02.38.23 FSC: Hi John.
calyxa: you've missed all my secrets ;)
02.38.49 John_Spirko: you must have a few left? :-)
calyxa: yeah, I'm working on finding, converting and uploading the next example image...
02.39.26 FSC: Im sure she does.
02.39.28 pushinfaders: I'm still experimenting with distorted noise displacements..nothing great to report, but I think I'm on the right track by using small amounst and sizes of the distortion
02.40.04 pushinfaders: Just enough to make it look different
02.41.08 pushinfaders: Shive had some nice sine displacements on the snow stuff
calyxa: this - http://calyxa.pandromeda.com/treetest1.jpg - is a parameter bomb...
calyxa: (sorry it's so dark... )
02.41.36 artistken: I am away.
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calyxa: quick, grab him!
02.42.01 camel: Wow neat looking Caly!!
calyxa: needs work... but again, it's a 'proof of concept' thing.
02.42.27 camel: Hey infidel watch that revolving door!!!!
02.42.51 FSC: Wow, cool Caly.
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calyxa: it'll be easier to do stuff like that if I ever get around to finishing my material plugin where one can blend the color of the materials separately from the displacement...
02.44.33 infidel: i keep getting disconnected :(
calyxa: and I assume it's still slow and lag-y for you still, huh...
calyxa: wish I knew why..
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calyxa: w/b Bruce
02.45.53 pushinfaders: Argh
02.45.55 camel: infidel you running Dialup?
calyxa: brb...
02.47.43 infidel: T1 at res!
02.48.03 camel: Hmmm.........
02.48.08 pushinfaders: I'm on dial up..no probs and I'm on the lod version of vox
02.48.38 FSC: Im on dial up